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hi everybody I have an interview coming

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up in a minute with this guy Jason loov

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about his new book on John Dee and I

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want to give you heads up because this

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is as far as I can remember the most

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confrontational interview I've ever

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published on skeptical and I wanted to

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say two things about that

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first I'm okay with that I'm okay with

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some heated exchanges and some

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disagreements particularly in this case

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because this guy has done a ton of

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interviews on this book and the topics

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that we kind of clash over I think most

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people would find surprising that he has

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such a strong opinion about scientism I

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mean he really believes in science as we

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know it in materialistic science I mean

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from a magic guy that super super

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surprising and the other thing is he's

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really down on conspiracies I mean he

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doesn't believe in conspiracies whatever

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that means and I guess that's the second

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thing that I want to bring up cuz to me

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that is such a litmus test I know

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there's a lot of people out there that

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don't believe in conspiracies but to me

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you are on the outside of our culture of

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our society of this whole thing you are

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on the outside looking in if you don't

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accept that conspiracies are at the

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heart of everything they're at the heart

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of politics they're at the heart of

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money they're at the heart of therefore

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science because science cares about all

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those things policymaking it's at the

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heart of everything so you know to say I

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don't believe in conspiracies and at the

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same time to say I believe in magic is

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well I wish I could have gotten there

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earlier in the interview but he kind of

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surprised me with all that but I think

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it's important I think it's important to

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understand that and bring that forward

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especially from a guy who's made such a

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splash with

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this book so here then is my interview

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with Jason Luth

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading thinkers researchers and

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their critics today we welcome a jason

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louvre - skeptic Oh to talk about his

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new book John D and the Empire of Angels

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and all things magic and magical Jason

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welcome thanks for having me on well

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it's a real pleasure to have you on you

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know I I learned about you I was

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listening to Greg Carl woods show which

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I liked a lot in then I was listening to

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Gordon White who I really like and he's

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been on the show a couple times and I'm

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like wow how have I been missing the

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boat with Jason over here well I've been

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missing in action for awhile I mean I've

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been I've been heavy pushing on magic

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since 2003 when 2005 was when my first

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book came out so you know I've been in

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the trenches for a long long time but

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the yeah the newest book I mean I I took

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three years off to write that book so

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I've been out of the fray of the

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internet to prepare a small

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thermonuclear device and sometimes when

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you're out of the fray of Twitter and

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Facebook and all that all that nonsense

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people think you don't exist so that's

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obviously not the case

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true enough it doesn't take much for you

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know out of sight out of mind kind of

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thing but you do have a lot of cool

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things going on and people will ton of

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people will be reintroduced to you

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through this book and then they're gonna

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find their way to your podcast you're

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also a podcast or ultra culture and you

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have this course a whole bunch of

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courses I actually signed on for this

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course course which I'm showing on the

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screen here start learning magic I mean

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do give us the rundown on Jason but you

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know where are you from brief bio where

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are you from what's right about how you

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got into all this stuff so I grew up in

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in San Diego from Southern California

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was educated in a bay area and in London

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I worked in the publishing industry in

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the advertising industry in New York and

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Los Angeles for most of my 20s and I

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would describe myself as a you know

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certainly as an author and as a futurist

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of within eight books now and I've been

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you know a lot of people talk about

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magic I've been pretty steadily doing

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magic quietly and also publishing about

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it for my entire life for 20 years that

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includes studying with traditions all

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over the world including indigenous

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shamanism Himalaya and yoga up in the

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Himalayas masonry neural linguistic

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programming Sufi ISM cast magic

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Hermeticism on and on and on and on and

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sometimes I think that people should

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really do the work before they start

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talking on the internet but you know

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I've been publishing books as well and

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you know and for me it's not just about

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spiritual development I've tried to do

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everything that I can to do real magic

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in the world which for me simply means

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trying to help the evolution of the

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human species and some of the things

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I've done in that regard I've worked

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with Buzz Aldrin on his plan to colonize

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Mars I recently worked with Google's

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artist and machine intelligence program

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on working with them on coming up with

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plans for benevolent super intelligence

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because AIS will be happening very soon

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and it's imperative that they're

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friendly as I'm sure you might imagine

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and in the meantime I've been you know

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trying to publish books on magic and and

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teach courses on it and share my take on

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it and share my knowledge that I've you

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know you know the experience that I've

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gained with it primarily because I think

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it's it's it's it's utterly imperative

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that as we see every day now that the

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human species you know gets to the next

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level here we need to kind of move along

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and evolve beyond tribal warfare which

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and we seem to be sliding back into the

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dark ages I would much rather humanity

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go forward into a glorious posthuman you

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know enlightened Buddha like future and

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yeah so that's kind of the deal with

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yeah I'm probably leaving a lot out I

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mean well I mean to the on the contrary

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I mean I think you've put almost too

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much to unpack there on the table and I

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certainly won't rhyme we're gonna put on

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my tombstone too much to unpack they'll

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figure it out oh they'll figure out what

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I've been up to in a 150 years or

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something like that maybe they'll be

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better maybe I'll be forgotten in

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particular when we add in this magical

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angle because there's really I think one

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of the things I hope to do in this show

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is kind of give people a deep dive into

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the big picture questions because you

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kind of blow past all these but I'm

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tipping my hand in terms of where I want

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to go let's start with the book your

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publisher was nice enough to introduce

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me so we are hereby obligated to talk

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about this is really rather remarkable

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the book it's getting a lot of attention

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as well it should it's it's really

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pretty fantastic what I want to focus on

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here I mean tell people about the book

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they should go out and get the book even

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though we're not going to spend a lot of

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time in this interview talking about it

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they should get it talk about what I've

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underlined there a knock you marry a

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cult and this empire architecture that

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is John Dee and why he's relevant to

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anyone whether they're super interested

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in magic or not ok so the book is called

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John Dee and the Empire of Angels and

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it's a it's a history and a biographical

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take on dr. John Dee who was Queen

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Elizabeth the first court astrologer and

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scientific adviser he was a real-life

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magician he was interested in magic and

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not just for you know silly things like

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fortune-telling but very directly to get

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the British Empire going Dee was the guy

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who coined the phrase British Empire

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he is the person responsible for laying

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out the naval schematics made it

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possible to create among many many other

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scientific and mathematical achievements

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he's the person that brought higher

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mathematics to the British public for

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the first time and

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he also spent about ten plus years doing

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occult rituals non-stop to talk to

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angels to try and learn the higher

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wisdom of humanity believe that or not

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his work has had a tremendous impact on

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history although it's been kept secret

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and occulted so what that means is that

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this book is not just about the singular

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individual but it's about the secret

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history of the last 500 years of the

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world and about the occult forces that

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have been quietly yet you know

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incredibly forcefully shaping world

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history and what that really means is

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this is the guide to what reality

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actually is and and how to potentially

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reorient yourself to it and and maybe

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that you yourself might have to learn a

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bit of magic just to get your way out of

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the nightmare of history okay but he's

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also a complicated guy as you are you

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know you're very fair-minded I think in

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the book I mean in some respects he's a

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broken man he's he's not a perfect man

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the other thing is important is he's a

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Christian you know a lot of people will

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come along come across John Dee and

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they'll immediately dive into the magic

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and the wife-swapping and the crazy kind

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of stuff and then look this guy is a

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devout Christian he is as Christian as

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he can be even when he's doing his magic

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he's praying intensely and intently to

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Jesus and to for protection and for

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guidance and all this stuff it but in

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the end he also has this other side he

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is a somewhat broken man and and then

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there is the question of is he being

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manipulated somehow so these are kind of

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the deeper questions but the kind of

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stuff I did want to get into so let's do

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that now what do you think

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well I push back on that a little bit in

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the sense the deeds are certainly had

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some misadventures he had ups and downs

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but the reality is the reality of John

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Dee is that he was a he was a government

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servant he was an object well-paid one

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and but we have to put that in context

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in context nobody was well-paid at this

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time Sir Francis

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do you spend his entire life and debt

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but he wasn't unique in that Sir Francis

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Walsingham who started the British

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intelligence agencies at this time also

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also spent his life in debt England was

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broke at this time which deve actually

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fixed by giving them the plans for

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building an empire and colonizing the

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new world but also we have to put that

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in context and the reason that's

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important is so often people will point

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to stories of guys like John Dee or

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Crowley and say well oh like they died

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broke they died destitute that proves

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that you know there's something sinister

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about magic and you shouldn't mess with

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it well the reality is that John Dee

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rose to as high of a position as he

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could have given the economics of the

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time given his class background and look

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I mean it was this it was the 1500s life

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was hard people were dying a plague you

272
00:11:59,920 --> 00:11:57,890
know people were starving to death

273
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you know nobody he's got what I'm

274
00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:01,790
referring what I'm referring to is you

275
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:05,240
reveal in the book I mean what I'm not

276
00:12:10,780 --> 00:12:07,730
putting the guy down because in one

277
00:12:14,170 --> 00:12:10,790
sense he is the ultimate spiritual

278
00:12:16,329 --> 00:12:14,180
seeker truth seeker warrior but you know

279
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the point where he almost reaches the

280
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:18,620
point of suicide I think is is telling

281
00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:20,480
in that it's telling in a couple of ways

282
00:12:25,569 --> 00:12:23,990
when he reaches it because his spiritual

283
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:25,579
journey he feels like will not be

284
00:12:31,540 --> 00:12:28,399
fulfilled well there's two ways to read

285
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:31,550
that one is to admire the kind of

286
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:34,790
intense interest and desire he has to

287
00:12:38,889 --> 00:12:36,890
achieve the spiritual fulfillment but

288
00:12:41,170 --> 00:12:38,899
the other is you know what does he

289
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:41,180
what's going on in the psyche of this

290
00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:42,320
guy that he's going to commit suicide

291
00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:44,540
what goes on in the psyche of them when

292
00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:47,270
he pairs with Kelly who was you know not

293
00:12:53,139 --> 00:12:51,529
that so he is a complicated figure maybe

294
00:12:54,730 --> 00:12:53,149
you don't want to put broken on it but

295
00:12:58,030 --> 00:12:54,740
I'm not talking about it in any other

296
00:13:01,120 --> 00:12:58,040
way than just as a from the truth seeker

297
00:13:05,710 --> 00:13:01,130
spiritual warrior part he had a tough go

298
00:13:07,420 --> 00:13:05,720
of it well I think the bit you're

299
00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:07,430
referring to about the contemplation of

300
00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:10,550
suicide so that was the late 15 60s or

301
00:13:15,130 --> 00:13:12,260
Adi had been attempting to contact

302
00:13:17,050 --> 00:13:15,140
angels and he couldn't do it and he

303
00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:17,060
writes a comment in his Diaries which

304
00:13:21,389 --> 00:13:18,520
can be interpreted as

305
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:21,399
him you know throwing and wanting to

306
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:22,810
throw in the towel and contemplates

307
00:13:29,070 --> 00:13:26,110
suicide but this was very passing it

308
00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:29,080
wasn't a serious thing and what happened

309
00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:32,110
is that's when he realized he needed

310
00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:34,120
help you know I think there's often

311
00:13:37,290 --> 00:13:35,830
times in our life where we realize we

312
00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:37,300
can't do everything on our own and

313
00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:38,950
that's when he started to audition

314
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:40,600
squires because really what was

315
00:13:45,449 --> 00:13:43,450
happening there is that deep was an

316
00:13:47,310 --> 00:13:45,459
intellectual he was a hard head he did

317
00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:47,320
not have any what you might call

318
00:13:52,530 --> 00:13:49,540
intuitive or perhaps to go out on a limb

319
00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:52,540
psychic faculties so he couldn't go into

320
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:54,520
trance states but what he realized and

321
00:13:56,579 --> 00:13:55,810
this was a really important realization

322
00:13:58,110 --> 00:13:56,589
for him

323
00:14:00,480 --> 00:13:58,120
is that he needed to work with people

324
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:00,490
that could and that's when he met Kelly

325
00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:03,130
and Kelly certainly brought baggage with

326
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:05,020
him but Kelly was incredibly talented

327
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:06,910
and gifted he could do it so I don't

328
00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:08,800
think it's a surprise that they were

329
00:14:15,180 --> 00:14:11,350
working together and and I do think that

330
00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:15,190
I don't think there's any time in Dee's

331
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:17,790
life where you can say that he was

332
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:20,050
broken I mean even towards the end of

333
00:14:24,690 --> 00:14:22,240
his life he lost his wife his wife and

334
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,700
most of his children to the play yet he

335
00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:26,800
remained in good spirits to the very end

336
00:14:33,630 --> 00:14:29,320
as as a scene in his Diaries and I think

337
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:33,640
that's a testament to his the depth of

338
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:37,690
his spiritual learning and is his faith

339
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:40,510
you know I mean you know life is hard

340
00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:42,310
what people go through hard things in

341
00:14:44,730 --> 00:14:42,910
their lives

342
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:44,740
it doesn't necessarily detract from

343
00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:47,440
their their work in fact I don't think

344
00:14:51,329 --> 00:14:49,660
there's anyone on earth particularly

345
00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:51,339
well I mean particularly anyone who's

346
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:54,790
ever achieved anything or tried to make

347
00:14:59,220 --> 00:14:57,370
some great scientific advance who hasn't

348
00:15:02,130 --> 00:14:59,230
gone through incredible hardships I mean

349
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:02,140
if we look at this great scientist the

350
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:05,640
20th century like Marie Marie Curie or

351
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,290
Einstein people like this some of these

352
00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:10,240
our tests love for instance some of

353
00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:11,560
these people went through tremendous

354
00:15:14,730 --> 00:15:13,480
hardships in their life but that doesn't

355
00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:14,740
necessarily mean that they were broken

356
00:15:21,569 --> 00:15:19,300
or to detract from there you know

357
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:21,579
detract from how we view them life is

358
00:15:27,540 --> 00:15:24,490
hard you know Jason as I mentioned to

359
00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:27,550
you I did sign up for an M in the middle

360
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:29,260
of going through your free magic course

361
00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:31,930
very interesting stuff very empowered

362
00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:35,950
in a lot of great ways but I think one

363
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:37,089
of the things that's going to throw

364
00:15:43,769 --> 00:15:40,450
people as well as while your bio might

365
00:15:45,389 --> 00:15:43,779
throw people what you're talking about a

366
00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:45,399
lot of times in terms of this

367
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:49,630
empowerment in terms of personal

368
00:15:55,980 --> 00:15:53,370
development doesn't sound like magic in

369
00:15:57,930 --> 00:15:55,990
the way that a lot of people think of it

370
00:16:00,120 --> 00:15:57,940
in a lot of ways it doesn't even sound

371
00:16:03,510 --> 00:16:00,130
like the magic we encounter in the book

372
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:03,520
in terms of what John Dee was thinking

373
00:16:07,620 --> 00:16:05,920
about in terms of magic or what Kelly

374
00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:07,630
was thinking about in terms of magic

375
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:09,580
I've done a bunch of shows on this so

376
00:16:13,710 --> 00:16:10,959
I've done a bunch of shows with Gordon

377
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:13,720
I've done a bunch of shows with other

378
00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:15,279
people who are getting into magic like

379
00:16:21,389 --> 00:16:17,320
dr. Dean Radin the pair of psychologists

380
00:16:24,090 --> 00:16:21,399
I mean how much do we have to own the

381
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:24,100
fact that magic is usually associated

382
00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:28,089
with somehow marshaling this spiritual

383
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:33,220
realm to do stuff on our behalf and that

384
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:36,970
that is usually part and parcel of this

385
00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:40,450
definition of magic so I'm all about the

386
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:42,220
empowerment the personal development

387
00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:47,130
stuff but kind of helped me sort through

388
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,160
where we have to draw that line sure so

389
00:16:55,860 --> 00:16:52,959
what you're talking about is a vocation

390
00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:55,870
which is the conjuration of spirits it

391
00:17:00,449 --> 00:16:57,580
tends to be associated with a Hollywood

392
00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:00,459
map definition of magic which doesn't

393
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:02,980
really do us any favors or the Hammer

394
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:06,250
horror version of magic my personal take

395
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:07,890
on magic and now having done it

396
00:17:12,210 --> 00:17:10,390
basically every day of my life for the

397
00:17:15,030 --> 00:17:12,220
last 20 years and studied under some of

398
00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:15,040
the greatest masters of it in the world

399
00:17:20,699 --> 00:17:17,579
Genesis pure edge gurus in the Himalayas

400
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:20,709
shamans in the Himalayas Tibetan

401
00:17:27,059 --> 00:17:23,170
Buddhist is the whole point of the

402
00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:27,069
magical path is enlightenment right so

403
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:29,740
the point of magic is to develop

404
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:31,120
yourself

405
00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:33,610
Crowley refers to it as the entire as

406
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:35,940
it's something along the lines of the

407
00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:38,650
absolute development of the whole man

408
00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:41,260
along the vertical axis it's about

409
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:44,440
becoming the ultimate version of

410
00:17:47,650 --> 00:17:45,770
yourself and that's not

411
00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:47,660
just personal development it's far

412
00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:49,640
beyond that it is personal development

413
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:51,350
but it's much much beyond that now

414
00:17:55,420 --> 00:17:53,150
how did differentiate that from a

415
00:17:57,490 --> 00:17:55,430
vocation here's my take on it a lot of

416
00:17:59,710 --> 00:17:57,500
people before you go there this is

417
00:18:01,000 --> 00:17:59,720
important yeah but well this is

418
00:18:03,130 --> 00:18:01,010
important too because it's not just

419
00:18:06,010 --> 00:18:03,140
about a vocation it's not just about

420
00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:06,020
sorcery it's about look you folks in the

421
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:08,750
magical community have a really strong

422
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:12,650
point to make but I think you got to be

423
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:14,690
clear about how you make it one of the

424
00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:16,250
points you make that's really clear

425
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:18,140
crystal clear to anyone who wants to

426
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:21,130
examine it is if you're practicing

427
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:24,710
religion you're practicing magic well

428
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:26,450
let's back up let's back up because I

429
00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:28,250
was about to finish my thought I needed

430
00:18:31,420 --> 00:18:29,720
to respond to the first thing that you

431
00:18:35,170 --> 00:18:31,430
said before we get sidetracked with all

432
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:35,180
due respect the so the whole point about

433
00:18:39,790 --> 00:18:37,940
a vocation the reason that you asked me

434
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:39,800
to draw a clear line and I do this very

435
00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:42,320
clearly in the courses and I do think

436
00:18:45,340 --> 00:18:43,430
that this is one thing that

437
00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:45,350
differentiates me quite a bit from other

438
00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:47,660
current teachers of magic it's become

439
00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:50,150
quite in vogue within the last 10 to 20

440
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:53,240
years to look at grimore z-- and rely on

441
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,280
grimore z-- and spirit' conjuration my

442
00:18:59,890 --> 00:18:57,440
personal take on this is that when you

443
00:19:01,390 --> 00:18:59,900
you know whatever call up a spirit

444
00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:01,400
conjure spirit or whatever you call that

445
00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:03,620
to do something for you what you're

446
00:19:07,090 --> 00:19:05,000
actually doing is missing the

447
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:07,100
opportunity to develop the faculty to do

448
00:19:12,190 --> 00:19:10,250
it yourself so my take on magic and when

449
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:12,200
I say magic it's kind of I use magic as

450
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:13,910
a catch-all term for a lot of different

451
00:19:18,130 --> 00:19:15,710
spiritual paths but specifically for the

452
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:18,140
Western esoteric tradition the point of

453
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:19,850
the Western esoteric tradition is as I

454
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:22,610
said the raising of the entire

455
00:19:26,830 --> 00:19:24,890
individual along the vertical axis of

456
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:26,840
becoming a more enlightened empowered

457
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:28,970
and in weight awake individual that's

458
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:31,730
the safe way to do it do conjuring

459
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:33,950
spirits is the unsafe way to do it by

460
00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:36,260
and large now I'm not saying that to put

461
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,120
down different traditions and religions

462
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:40,640
that rely very strongly upon spirit

463
00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:42,410
contact but that's not my interest in

464
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:46,070
magic and it's not what I teach so well

465
00:19:51,850 --> 00:19:49,010
I can accept that that's not what you

466
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:51,860
teach or that that's not what your

467
00:19:57,550 --> 00:19:55,600
interest is my problem is

468
00:20:00,099 --> 00:19:57,560
differentiating between the map and the

469
00:20:02,049 --> 00:20:00,109
territory so

470
00:20:04,029 --> 00:20:02,059
you can say that you know that's not

471
00:20:06,249 --> 00:20:04,039
your map that's not how you're doing it

472
00:20:09,729 --> 00:20:06,259
your map is personal empowerment or

473
00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:09,739
however you say it the point is is there

474
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:12,440
a spiritual realm and does that

475
00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:15,049
spiritual realm have impact on our

476
00:20:20,289 --> 00:20:17,929
material realm and I that is

477
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:20,299
fundamentally the question that I think

478
00:20:25,719 --> 00:20:22,369
we wrestle with and we don't wrestle to

479
00:20:27,879 --> 00:20:25,729
the ground and we really need to wrestle

480
00:20:30,369 --> 00:20:27,889
to the ground as even just a basic

481
00:20:32,169 --> 00:20:30,379
starting point you know right the screen

482
00:20:38,169 --> 00:20:32,179
that I put up here it says reality you

483
00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:38,179
know I this show is 90% about the fact

484
00:20:43,169 --> 00:20:40,700
that the absurdity that we live in a

485
00:20:46,749 --> 00:20:43,179
scientific reality that completely

486
00:20:49,529 --> 00:20:46,759
disavows not only disavows just doesn't

487
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:49,539
acknowledge anything beyond

488
00:20:57,369 --> 00:20:54,169
materialistic dogmatic kind of science

489
00:20:58,839 --> 00:20:57,379
right so there is no room for magic

490
00:21:01,529 --> 00:20:58,849
there's no room for religion there's no

491
00:21:05,019 --> 00:21:01,539
room for anything beyond that

492
00:21:07,389 --> 00:21:05,029
materialism that were a mesh tin and the

493
00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:07,399
absurdity is that no one really believes

494
00:21:11,259 --> 00:21:09,190
that no one believes that they're a

495
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:11,269
biological robot in a meaningless

496
00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:14,450
universe we believe that we are able to

497
00:21:20,109 --> 00:21:16,609
connect with other people that we have

498
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:20,119
love that we have meaning in our life

499
00:21:24,339 --> 00:21:22,700
and yet we walk our kids to school and

500
00:21:26,769 --> 00:21:24,349
let them go into science class and

501
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:26,779
science class tells them no you are a

502
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:28,970
biological robot in the universe is

503
00:21:32,919 --> 00:21:29,690
meaningless

504
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,929
so the real the first challenge before

505
00:21:37,149 --> 00:21:34,159
we even get into any of that

506
00:21:40,089 --> 00:21:37,159
sorcery or avocational spirits or any of

507
00:21:41,769 --> 00:21:40,099
that is to understand the difference

508
00:21:45,879 --> 00:21:41,779
between this bracketed reality of

509
00:21:47,499 --> 00:21:45,889
science and spirituality if you will in

510
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:47,509
its broadest sense in terms of their

511
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:50,570
being more than just a material world

512
00:21:57,129 --> 00:21:54,369
are we on the same page there or or not

513
00:21:58,570 --> 00:21:57,139
well I can tell you my take on it which

514
00:22:02,619 --> 00:21:58,580
is that when I approach these things

515
00:22:04,060 --> 00:22:02,629
first off I do not put science and magic

516
00:22:06,399 --> 00:22:04,070
in opposition to each other I think

517
00:22:08,769 --> 00:22:06,409
that's a false dictum II and to be more

518
00:22:11,529 --> 00:22:08,779
specific about that I think that science

519
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:11,539
is the crowning achievement of humanity

520
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:13,210
I think it's the greatest tool we

521
00:22:19,019 --> 00:22:16,450
ever come up with in order to you know

522
00:22:20,850 --> 00:22:19,029
put a light a light in the darkness to

523
00:22:23,610 --> 00:22:20,860
light a light in the demon haunted world

524
00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:23,620
as Carl Sagan once called it and I think

525
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:26,049
that in this book I really clearly shine

526
00:22:30,210 --> 00:22:28,450
a light on the work of people who were

527
00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:30,220
magicians and alchemists like John Dee

528
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:33,070
and Giordano Bruno and Isaac Newton and

529
00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:35,830
Francis Bacon and people like that to

530
00:22:39,899 --> 00:22:38,020
create science magic listserve excuse me

531
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:39,909
science was a creation of the magical

532
00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:42,159
tradition and it's a brilliant creation

533
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:44,860
now when I talk about magic I'm very

534
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:46,690
careful to separate these things because

535
00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:49,840
the last thing that I that I want is for

536
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:51,940
the scientific paradigm to collapse

537
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:53,710
right now in America we're seeing the

538
00:22:58,860 --> 00:22:57,100
the the catastrophic consequences of

539
00:22:59,760 --> 00:22:58,870
people not being able to know what's

540
00:23:02,220 --> 00:22:59,770
true anymore

541
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:02,230
and the whole thing of fake news and and

542
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:04,090
you know things that are going on

543
00:23:08,909 --> 00:23:06,730
politically we're really on the verge of

544
00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:08,919
going back to the dark ages and so I'm

545
00:23:14,669 --> 00:23:11,140
very careful even though I talk about

546
00:23:18,990 --> 00:23:14,679
magic not to put up this kind of you

547
00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:19,000
know Wooley 1970s in search of with

548
00:23:24,899 --> 00:23:21,220
Leonard Nimoy type of opposition between

549
00:23:26,789 --> 00:23:24,909
science and magic and now that said what

550
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:26,799
how were they different so my the way

551
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:29,260
that I look at it is that science tells

552
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:30,970
us the objective truths about what

553
00:23:34,769 --> 00:23:32,590
reality actually is it's a brilliant

554
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:34,779
tool magic is about the realm of

555
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:36,640
subjectivity it's the realm of how

556
00:23:42,029 --> 00:23:38,350
humans create meaning out of their

557
00:23:44,010 --> 00:23:42,039
experience now are there quote-unquote

558
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:44,020
spirits is there a spiritual reality

559
00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:46,270
there are absolutely things that people

560
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,220
have perceived as spirits throughout all

561
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:50,320
human history that have shaped appear to

562
00:23:54,779 --> 00:23:51,700
have shaped history and certainly shaped

563
00:23:56,639 --> 00:23:54,789
people's lives on a day to day basis the

564
00:23:59,100 --> 00:23:56,649
broader question is is there any

565
00:24:00,840 --> 00:23:59,110
objective reality reality to that or is

566
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:00,850
there something is that just an aspect

567
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:02,049
of people's minds

568
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:03,970
perhaps I should perhaps a shared aspect

569
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:06,130
of people's minds like a collective

570
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:08,110
unconscious perhaps to use and overused

571
00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:11,679
and a much abused term that's the real

572
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:13,960
question what is that the question of

573
00:24:19,260 --> 00:24:15,760
whether people interact with them and

574
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:19,270
whether people whether these things play

575
00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:21,490
a gigantic role in people's lives that's

576
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:23,380
a moot point because that that's the

577
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:25,330
truth that's that's what life on this

578
00:24:28,299 --> 00:24:26,370
planet is

579
00:24:31,250 --> 00:24:28,309
most cultures outside of Western culture

580
00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:31,260
interact with these realities on a daily

581
00:24:37,390 --> 00:24:33,990
basis whether that's South America

582
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:37,400
Africa India Buddhist cultures Thailand

583
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:40,559
even you know Christian groups for the

584
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:43,530
most part are immersed constantly in a

585
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:46,050
spiritual realm now my my previous

586
00:24:50,510 --> 00:24:48,690
answer what I was saying the point of

587
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:50,520
the way that I teach magic is that it's

588
00:24:57,410 --> 00:24:55,650
about enlightenment is that for me I

589
00:24:58,970 --> 00:24:57,420
that was a magical answer you know

590
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:58,980
somebody who's interested in yoga and

591
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,440
meditation all of that is an

592
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:03,360
intermediary layer the part where people

593
00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:05,670
get obsessed with sorcery and spirits

594
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:08,280
and powers and psychic phenomena and all

595
00:25:12,770 --> 00:25:10,890
that stuff that's kind of we you know

596
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:12,780
people often call that the astral plane

597
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:14,820
and for me that's an intermediary stage

598
00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:17,340
that's something to get past and what

599
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:19,920
I'm interested in is enlightenment

600
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:22,050
States that's and to get to that you

601
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:24,170
have to get beyond that layer of

602
00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:27,090
whatever it is that hallucinatory layer

603
00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:29,580
because what happens is people get into

604
00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:31,020
meditation and magic is they get to

605
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:33,780
unlock that hallucinatory layer and it

606
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:35,790
becomes endlessly fascinating just like

607
00:25:40,190 --> 00:25:38,340
TV would be but ultimately it's a

608
00:25:42,169 --> 00:25:40,200
distraction at the end of the day and

609
00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:42,179
that's another place where I have to

610
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:44,670
distinguish what I'm teaching from a lot

611
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:46,530
of other current approaches to magic are

612
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:48,480
there spirits can you summon them yes

613
00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:50,730
can you do astral travel and all these

614
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:53,070
things like this yes is it an

615
00:25:59,419 --> 00:25:56,970
intermediary stage in my opinion yeah so

616
00:26:03,710 --> 00:25:59,429
here's the hard part Jason mm-hmm I

617
00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:03,720
totally agree with you and the end game

618
00:26:11,390 --> 00:26:07,740
so I'm I'm a yogi right so that's my

619
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:11,400
orientate great what type of yoga forget

620
00:26:15,919 --> 00:26:14,040
that my problem with the magical

621
00:26:18,020 --> 00:26:15,929
community is kind of a pardon but okay

622
00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:18,030
well it's important to me right it's not

623
00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:19,620
bike it's not important to this

624
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:22,260
conversation right now well the reasons

625
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:24,450
I say it's important is because because

626
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:25,710
I'm trying to tell what you know what

627
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:27,450
your focus is if you're you know what

628
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:28,890
you're focusing on with your practice

629
00:26:36,010 --> 00:26:33,600
well what I'm focusing on right now is I

630
00:26:39,770 --> 00:26:36,020
don't understand how you are fully

631
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:39,780
embracing materialistic science and not

632
00:26:47,050 --> 00:26:43,440
drawing a desert I mean I don't get that

633
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:47,060
you know by a lot because because we are

634
00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:52,140
science has systematically and quite

635
00:26:59,270 --> 00:26:56,150
intentionally tried to deny all the

636
00:27:02,000 --> 00:26:59,280
aspects of the greater self that you're

637
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:02,010
talking about it's not an accident it's

638
00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:04,710
not this miracle of science kind of

639
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:06,600
thing it's part of that but it's also

640
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:09,600
culture shaping in terms of telling us

641
00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:12,810
that you are not more you are just a

642
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:16,110
biological robot go out and shop satisfy

643
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:19,110
your your physical desires because

644
00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:20,190
that's all you are

645
00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:22,620
and I'm kind of science presents a

646
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:25,500
garden shop that's that's consumerism in

647
00:27:32,540 --> 00:27:30,480
advertising how do you understand the

648
00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:32,550
distinction between scientific

649
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:34,830
materialism and the consumeristic

650
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:37,200
materialism where do you think that line

651
00:27:43,810 --> 00:27:39,570
is drawn philosophically well those are

652
00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:46,310
you're over generalizing and with all

653
00:27:50,270 --> 00:27:48,750
due respect you're conflating a lot of

654
00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:50,280
different things so let's back up to the

655
00:27:54,110 --> 00:27:51,480
beginning so first of all with

656
00:27:56,030 --> 00:27:54,120
scientific materialism to paint the

657
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:56,040
entirety of hundreds of years of science

658
00:28:00,380 --> 00:27:57,450
with one brush and say that it has a

659
00:28:02,750 --> 00:28:00,390
unified dogma is just inaccurate I think

660
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:02,760
are you talking about well what you just

661
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:11,630
science by definition says that science

662
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:14,640
is matter and that we can measure what

663
00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:17,130
what is going on and what we experience

664
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:19,740
right isn't that fundamentally that what

665
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:21,510
we call materialistic science isn't that

666
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:25,500
definition that's one that's one general

667
00:28:30,020 --> 00:28:27,630
part of thinking of science but science

668
00:28:31,580 --> 00:28:30,030
of all of science evolves constantly one

669
00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:31,590
thing that I've shown in John Dee and

670
00:28:35,060 --> 00:28:33,480
the Empire the Angels if is if you go

671
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:35,070
back to the beginnings of science and

672
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:36,930
people like John Dee and Francis Bacon

673
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:39,510
and and Isaac Newton is those things

674
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:41,370
were never separate and increasingly now

675
00:28:46,430 --> 00:28:43,410
they're not separate we see people like

676
00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:46,440
Rupert Sheldrake or Dean Dean Radin you

677
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:47,820
mentioned people who are looking at

678
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:49,890
these things very seriously but science

679
00:28:52,850 --> 00:28:51,960
is not a Dogma science is simply a set

680
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:52,860
of techniques

681
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:55,289
and to discard it well that's absolutely

682
00:29:00,350 --> 00:28:57,690
true I'm sorry to discard it would be

683
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:00,360
like going back to the Dark Ages I'm

684
00:29:04,370 --> 00:29:01,890
sure you're alive right now because

685
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:04,380
you've had access to penicillin you've

686
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:06,240
had access to drugs and things that have

687
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:07,679
been produced by science that have given

688
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:08,970
you a true we're talking on this

689
00:29:14,570 --> 00:29:11,610
computer all of these things are have

690
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:14,580
been given to us and I really don't draw

691
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:16,289
a distinction be the science as an

692
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:18,510
amazing tool humanity has created many

693
00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:20,970
many different wonderful tools why would

694
00:29:24,769 --> 00:29:22,950
we refuse to use them I mean if you want

695
00:29:27,139 --> 00:29:24,779
to go back and live in a cave and the

696
00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:27,149
12th century go right ahead but you seem

697
00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:28,590
not to be doing that because we're

698
00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:30,870
having a conversation on zoom so you

699
00:29:35,419 --> 00:29:32,940
must like science a bit you're certainly

700
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:35,429
benefitting from it now in terms of

701
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:37,679
whether science denies certain parts of

702
00:29:41,659 --> 00:29:39,210
the spiritual realm I have two answers

703
00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:41,669
to that one answer is that's good to a

704
00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:43,769
large part of Betsy to a large extent

705
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:45,870
you look at certain parts in this world

706
00:29:51,019 --> 00:29:48,110
where people are still immersed in fear

707
00:29:54,019 --> 00:29:51,029
fear of people having magical power over

708
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:54,029
them that's that's no good but also we

709
00:29:58,700 --> 00:29:56,970
everything is a process everything is a

710
00:30:00,860 --> 00:29:58,710
process of change science has been a

711
00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:00,870
very important period for human

712
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:03,659
consciousness to evolve through data

713
00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:05,970
science how does science as we know it

714
00:30:08,950 --> 00:30:08,190
modern science understand human

715
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:08,960
consciousness

716
00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:11,730
well it doesn't fully but that doesn't

717
00:30:16,129 --> 00:30:13,049
mean that it doesn't have the answer and

718
00:30:18,259 --> 00:30:16,139
that's where you get what is the current

719
00:30:20,659 --> 00:30:18,269
position of science on human

720
00:30:23,769 --> 00:30:20,669
consciousness that it's an epiphenomena

721
00:30:26,509 --> 00:30:23,779
of the brain that is it plain and simple

722
00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:26,519
well I think that's evolving quite a bit

723
00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:27,990
I mean right now so I've done quite a

724
00:30:33,259 --> 00:30:29,700
bit of work on artificial one so it's

725
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:33,269
true you can say it's evolving but it's

726
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:37,289
a really nice guy I've agreed to this

727
00:30:41,539 --> 00:30:38,880
interview so please at least let me

728
00:30:43,730 --> 00:30:41,549
finish my answers it's a conversation so

729
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:43,740
we can talk okay so let's talk one at a

730
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:44,870
time

731
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:47,850
so you interrupted me but go ahead okay

732
00:30:52,669 --> 00:30:51,600
okay I won't all right so I've done a

733
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:52,679
lot of work on artificial intelligence

734
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:54,630
science doesn't have an answer I was in

735
00:30:59,840 --> 00:30:56,399
the ph.d program in artificial hotels

736
00:31:01,820 --> 00:30:59,850
and I know all about it go ahead so they

737
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:01,830
don't fully know but that doesn't mean

738
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:03,210
that there's not an answer they're

739
00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:04,770
trying to reduce consciousness to an

740
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:05,620
algorithm

741
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:07,090
personally I don't think they actually

742
00:31:11,730 --> 00:31:09,760
will and what I want to make it very

743
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:11,740
clear that I'm not saying that science

744
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:13,450
has the ultimate answers what I'm saying

745
00:31:18,330 --> 00:31:15,730
is that science is a process it's very

746
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:18,340
hard to define because the very point of

747
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:20,500
science is that hypotheses are made and

748
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:23,049
then tested and that's an ongoing

749
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:25,840
process and things are overturned we

750
00:31:31,549 --> 00:31:28,120
don't fully know and certainly in my

751
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:31,559
work what I'm trying to do is bring

752
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:34,330
interest in things like meditation and

753
00:31:38,610 --> 00:31:36,970
spirituality and I want people to look

754
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:38,620
at them I particularly want scientists

755
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:41,890
to look at them and in a empirical and

756
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:43,870
methodical way so that we can look at

757
00:31:49,019 --> 00:31:45,610
those parts of the human experience and

758
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:49,029
bring back things that can be helpful to

759
00:31:52,860 --> 00:31:50,770
the our further evolution as a species

760
00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:52,870
particularly because of technology is

761
00:31:57,570 --> 00:31:56,169
advancing so quickly that we haven't

762
00:32:00,960 --> 00:31:57,580
been able to catch up with it on the

763
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:00,970
wisdom front so so again everything's a

764
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:02,710
tool I look at things magically in the

765
00:32:06,019 --> 00:32:04,000
sense that everything's a tool and I

766
00:32:08,430 --> 00:32:06,029
think we should lose use use all of it

767
00:32:10,350 --> 00:32:08,440
yeah I just think we have to nail some

768
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:10,360
things down so when you say

769
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:13,360
consciousness you know I talked to these

770
00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:15,460
folks all the time I'm some of the

771
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:17,590
leading researchers on consciousness

772
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:19,690
both on the materialistic side and more

773
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:21,730
of the cutting edge side you know Dean

774
00:32:25,260 --> 00:32:23,710
Radin has been on the show many times

775
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:25,270
Rupert Sheldrake has been on the show

776
00:32:31,889 --> 00:32:29,049
many times as has Christopher

777
00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:33,659
you know one of the leading researchers

778
00:32:41,010 --> 00:32:38,020
or was the guy at Arizona a Hameroff you

779
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:41,020
know the guy who's more so familiar with

780
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:43,090
this I just don't think you you're

781
00:32:51,269 --> 00:32:47,250
you're really fairly representing the

782
00:32:53,549 --> 00:32:51,279
struggle between this materialistic

783
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:53,559
definition of consciousness that is an

784
00:32:59,070 --> 00:32:56,110
Epiphone Amin of the brain and how

785
00:33:03,029 --> 00:32:59,080
science as we know it has not that has

786
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:03,039
just been Utley denied even considering

787
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:05,740
all the data that kind of tradition all

788
00:33:10,169 --> 00:33:07,809
the data from near-death experience

789
00:33:12,889 --> 00:33:10,179
science but even going back to quantum

790
00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:12,899
physics quantum physics is really it

791
00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:16,780
puts a wrench in the whole idea of this

792
00:33:20,940 --> 00:33:19,120
consciousness being

793
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:20,950
an epiphenomena of the brain this is a

794
00:33:26,370 --> 00:33:24,100
huge adult not only a dilemma for

795
00:33:28,170 --> 00:33:26,380
science but it's a huge stumbling block

796
00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:28,180
for science so you know you don't have

797
00:33:32,970 --> 00:33:30,700
to tell me science is a method it's not

798
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:32,980
a position statement of course we all

799
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:35,890
get that but the reality is the way

800
00:33:41,790 --> 00:33:39,160
science operates inside our inside our

801
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:41,800
society the way it works in terms of

802
00:33:46,530 --> 00:33:44,710
shaping policy the way it sure works in

803
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:46,540
terms of shaping culture it's really

804
00:33:51,210 --> 00:33:48,850
important that we understand these I

805
00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:51,220
don't understand the cheerleading for

806
00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:53,620
science as we know it I mean I guess I'm

807
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:55,720
more of an iconoclast but I think there

808
00:34:00,650 --> 00:33:58,450
has to be for us to move forward I think

809
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:00,660
it's really important that we have some

810
00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:03,850
fundamental reality check on just what

811
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:07,630
consciousness is in how much our current

812
00:34:13,110 --> 00:34:09,790
understanding of consciousness goes

813
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:13,120
against what is accepted widely

814
00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:15,970
throughout academia as being human

815
00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:19,030
consciousness so right you understand my

816
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:21,310
frustration well I think this is

817
00:34:29,250 --> 00:34:23,170
hilarious because now you got the magic

818
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:29,260
guy arguing for science online oh look

819
00:34:35,700 --> 00:34:32,050
here's the thing okay is there a is

820
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:35,710
there a friction between Sciences

821
00:34:39,090 --> 00:34:37,270
current definition of consciousness and

822
00:34:41,670 --> 00:34:39,100
what mystics have been telling us for a

823
00:34:43,380 --> 00:34:41,680
long period of time yes is science do a

824
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:43,390
large degree run by defense and military

825
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:45,910
contracting yes is that a problem yes

826
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:48,760
but what I don't want to do is make a

827
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:51,910
monolithic statement for all science as

828
00:34:56,190 --> 00:34:54,460
if all science is somehow some gigantic

829
00:34:58,350 --> 00:34:56,200
represent can be represented with one

830
00:34:59,730 --> 00:34:58,360
statement because that's simply not true

831
00:35:03,000 --> 00:34:59,740
there's scientists all over the world

832
00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:03,010
working on all different projects and to

833
00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:05,350
speak of the there's one monolithic

834
00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:07,360
scientific establishment is simply not

835
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:10,900
true that's just sloppy thinking so but

836
00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:13,540
it's not be thinking to say it later no

837
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:15,940
it's not no it's not what I'm saying is

838
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:19,270
what the science is okay what we're

839
00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:21,850
doing in general as a culture is where

840
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:24,670
we're increasing our knowledge science

841
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:26,170
is one of our tools to do that

842
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:29,050
mysticism is another to go backwards to

843
00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:31,540
reject science and to go backwards would

844
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:32,470
be a tremendous

845
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:35,200
civilizational wide disaster and we see

846
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:36,609
the consequences of that type of

847
00:35:39,870 --> 00:35:38,080
thinking in our world right now with

848
00:35:43,470 --> 00:35:39,880
people except in conspiracy theories

849
00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:43,480
fake news anti-vaccination stuff it's an

850
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:45,550
utter lie mer all you have to do go on

851
00:35:51,810 --> 00:35:49,119
on Facebook yes so let's bring into this

852
00:35:54,270 --> 00:35:51,820
conversation your friend and mine Gordon

853
00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:54,280
white right and I always credit Gordon

854
00:36:00,510 --> 00:35:57,310
with an important insight that he that

855
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:00,520
he gave me in this is that when when I

856
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:05,290
rail against the monolithic science as

857
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:07,810
we know its stand on human consciousness

858
00:36:13,470 --> 00:36:11,440
and how just bizarre it is that academia

859
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:13,480
promotes this because you're right there

860
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:15,010
are the outliers right

861
00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:16,480
I'm interview plenty of them on this

862
00:36:21,810 --> 00:36:19,240
side and on this show inside of academia

863
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:21,820
who point out the absurdity of this say

864
00:36:29,070 --> 00:36:25,290
well look I mean if you know Schrodinger

865
00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:29,080
in and the other giants of quantum

866
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:30,790
physics they got at a hundred years ago

867
00:36:35,820 --> 00:36:33,790
they said clearly our this materialistic

868
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:35,830
science doesn't make any sense we have

869
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:37,930
to look beyond that so clearly there's

870
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:40,570
been these giants within science who've

871
00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:42,400
tried to light the way the other would

872
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:44,200
have tried to light the path in another

873
00:36:49,410 --> 00:36:46,510
direction yet we keep going down this

874
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:49,420
brain-dead position this great

875
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:51,490
brain-dead path why and here was

876
00:36:54,839 --> 00:36:53,500
Gordon's point he said to find Brendan

877
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:54,849
and go back up what does what do you

878
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:57,040
mean by the story you'll like this story

879
00:37:00,480 --> 00:36:58,960
it's Gordon's Gordon's insight and I

880
00:37:02,339 --> 00:37:00,490
think it's a good one well that's

881
00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:02,349
another sloppy generalization but okay

882
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:05,800
go ahead well what do you mean by

883
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:08,260
brain-dead like what does that mean okay

884
00:37:13,020 --> 00:37:10,930
I'm gonna just breeze right past it

885
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:13,030
here's okay are you bringing up things

886
00:37:15,839 --> 00:37:14,560
that just don't make sense what is brain

887
00:37:17,730 --> 00:37:15,849
dead man you're talking about all

888
00:37:19,530 --> 00:37:17,740
science and it's brain dead what does

889
00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:19,540
that mean don't you define it to me

890
00:37:23,579 --> 00:37:21,070
because I don't understand you figure of

891
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:23,589
speech Jase what are you what are you

892
00:37:32,370 --> 00:37:26,410
trying to tell me what are you trying to

893
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:32,380
communicate no it's important you're the

894
00:37:36,270 --> 00:37:33,910
one who said we weren't going to do the

895
00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:36,280
interruption game so you know the

896
00:37:40,050 --> 00:37:38,470
jabbing back and forth is just it's not

897
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:40,060
even gonna make good theater let alone

898
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:42,010
communicating any ideas but I'm just

899
00:37:44,849 --> 00:37:43,119
trying to understand what you're saying

900
00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:44,859
I think you do understand what you're

901
00:37:50,009 --> 00:37:45,849
saying you're being coy

902
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:50,019
when I said no when I say brain-dead

903
00:37:57,089 --> 00:37:51,670
science what's what's difficult about

904
00:37:58,259 --> 00:37:57,099
that to understand you said I said

905
00:38:00,059 --> 00:37:58,269
you're gonna interrupt but you just

906
00:38:01,319 --> 00:38:00,069
asked me a question you work in it

907
00:38:03,359 --> 00:38:01,329
interrupt right but you ask me a

908
00:38:05,249 --> 00:38:03,369
question I responded well you're still

909
00:38:06,959 --> 00:38:05,259
interrupting right so you lost your

910
00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:06,969
Cornish game you want to play sure but

911
00:38:11,579 --> 00:38:09,940
that's okay so no you asked me a

912
00:38:13,819 --> 00:38:11,589
question and I responded okay here's my

913
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:13,829
point

914
00:38:19,469 --> 00:38:16,630
dad that's silliness I'm sorry that's

915
00:38:22,229 --> 00:38:19,479
silliness well okay it's it's a figure

916
00:38:24,209 --> 00:38:22,239
of speech it's an exaggeration okay all

917
00:38:28,219 --> 00:38:24,219
right no one gets that science is

918
00:38:30,479 --> 00:38:28,229
completely brain dead brain dead is okay

919
00:38:41,279 --> 00:38:30,489
we're agreed so you said something that

920
00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:41,289
is not true no literally but you know

921
00:38:47,249 --> 00:38:43,569
all along but you wasted two minutes of

922
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:47,259
the show - no okay look I got a ton of

923
00:38:53,939 --> 00:38:50,170
stuff to do so please just tell me what

924
00:38:55,259 --> 00:38:53,949
your point is well I mean I don't know

925
00:38:57,689 --> 00:38:55,269
that's gonna make any difference it's

926
00:39:00,059 --> 00:38:57,699
like you said I don't understand how how

927
00:39:01,829 --> 00:39:00,069
a magic guy gets it you know you're

928
00:39:02,609 --> 00:39:01,839
you're non conspiratorial so we're

929
00:39:06,359 --> 00:39:02,619
always going to go down as a

930
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:06,369
conspiratorial path right so for you you

931
00:39:11,699 --> 00:39:08,049
you don't want to hear that but to

932
00:39:14,699 --> 00:39:11,709
suggest that the the government control

933
00:39:16,559 --> 00:39:14,709
mechanism CIA deep state however you

934
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:16,569
want to put it hasn't had a vested

935
00:39:21,870 --> 00:39:20,079
interest in steering consciousness in a

936
00:39:24,269 --> 00:39:21,880
certain way in terms of steering

937
00:39:27,809 --> 00:39:24,279
academia towards this materialistic

938
00:39:30,269 --> 00:39:27,819
science that denies a larger broader

939
00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:30,279
extended consciousness while at the same

940
00:39:33,989 --> 00:39:32,380
time they were investigating and

941
00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:33,999
figuring out how to weaponize

942
00:39:38,459 --> 00:39:36,670
consciousness I think is incredibly

943
00:39:44,759 --> 00:39:38,469
naive and I don't see it in your in your

944
00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:44,769
worldview at all it just seems well let

945
00:39:49,109 --> 00:39:46,900
me ask you this if that's true you know

946
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:49,119
I have history then I don't know if

947
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:51,249
that's true then why has the Trump

948
00:39:55,650 --> 00:39:53,410
administration been defunding science

949
00:39:57,870 --> 00:39:55,660
and denying science left and right if

950
00:39:59,280 --> 00:39:57,880
anything the people in power wants to

951
00:40:02,100 --> 00:39:59,290
deny Kline

952
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:02,110
science science here's my position okay

953
00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:05,200
science not climate change or no back up

954
00:40:10,350 --> 00:40:08,500
here's my position science is the

955
00:40:12,330 --> 00:40:10,360
greatest light that humanity has ever

956
00:40:16,350 --> 00:40:12,340
created you asked me how can a magic

957
00:40:18,620 --> 00:40:16,360
person say that I'm a human mask guy

958
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:18,630
listen to me I didn't answer that

959
00:40:40,290 --> 00:40:32,170
question let me speak time so now you

960
00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:40,300
can excite me science supports climate

961
00:40:48,090 --> 00:40:43,900
change yes 90 99.7% of all nasa

962
00:40:52,770 --> 00:40:48,100
scientists okay this sells fake figure

963
00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:52,780
in the world you're an idiot you're an

964
00:40:57,180 --> 00:40:56,740
idiot I'm sorry I'm sorry science at

965
00:41:02,310 --> 00:40:57,190
NASA

966
00:41:04,590 --> 00:41:02,320
driving our wall back to the dark ages

967
00:41:07,290 --> 00:41:04,600
this type of thinking this type of

968
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:07,300
thinking conspiratorial if that was

969
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:09,040
actually true the government will be

970
00:41:12,330 --> 00:41:10,510
funding all this science but they're

971
00:41:14,070 --> 00:41:12,340
actually tearing it apart and what's

972
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:14,080
happening is the world is sliding

973
00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:15,850
backwards into ignorance of the type

974
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:17,940
that you're displaying because if you're

975
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:22,150
warming look if you're gonna be an

976
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:23,770
individual who wants to liberate

977
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:26,050
humanity you will legally use every tool

978
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:28,690
possible Robert Anton Wilson one of my

979
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:29,890
heroes thought that you should be able

980
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:31,690
to wear every hat possible whether

981
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:34,090
that's magic or science or consciousness

982
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:35,680
and you should be able to go back and

983
00:41:39,570 --> 00:41:37,360
forth between them as much as possible

984
00:41:40,980 --> 00:41:39,580
with people like you I pushed science

985
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:40,990
with people who are as hard science

986
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:43,210
people I push consciousness but right

987
00:41:45,810 --> 00:41:44,530
now you're just telling me things that

988
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:45,820
are not true and you're being very

989
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:47,950
combative again about it I'm being

990
00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:50,290
combative back because I'm pushing back

991
00:41:55,650 --> 00:41:51,820
against statements which are just simply

992
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:55,660
not true this is important because we we

993
00:41:59,850 --> 00:41:58,090
live in a post truth world which

994
00:42:02,490 --> 00:41:59,860
actually means a world full of lies and

995
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:02,500
delusions misinformation and on

996
00:42:08,010 --> 00:42:05,440
education have you ever read the study

997
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:08,020
from the NASA that's cited on the wet

998
00:42:12,839 --> 00:42:10,990
NASA website and that was cited by Obama

999
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:12,849
the 97

1000
00:42:17,069 --> 00:42:15,130
sent consensus have you ever read the

1001
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:17,079
study do you know the methodology that

1002
00:42:24,329 --> 00:42:20,410
was used you haven't even said the name

1003
00:42:26,249 --> 00:42:24,339
of the study well it's the same study

1004
00:42:28,289 --> 00:42:26,259
that everybody references I forget the

1005
00:42:29,549 --> 00:42:28,299
guys name but do you know you have you

1006
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:29,559
haven't told me what the name of the

1007
00:42:33,059 --> 00:42:31,210
what the study is what what or even what

1008
00:42:36,299 --> 00:42:33,069
it says I well I'll tell you what it

1009
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:36,309
says but the the methodology which

1010
00:42:40,739 --> 00:42:37,960
everyone assumes that they went out and

1011
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:40,749
they polled scientists and they asked

1012
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:42,729
him what their view on global warming is

1013
00:42:48,029 --> 00:42:45,249
but that's not the methodology that they

1014
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:48,039
used what they did is they hired a bunch

1015
00:42:54,329 --> 00:42:50,710
of grad students to survey science

1016
00:42:56,339 --> 00:42:54,339
abstracts and then they made a judgment

1017
00:42:59,759 --> 00:42:56,349
call on whether those abstracts were

1018
00:43:02,370 --> 00:42:59,769
supportive or non supportive of their

1019
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:02,380
understanding what global warming was it

1020
00:43:07,529 --> 00:43:04,930
was flawed from the beginning and then

1021
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:07,539
in particular many many scientists came

1022
00:43:12,180 --> 00:43:10,089
forward who were cited in that study and

1023
00:43:14,849 --> 00:43:12,190
said hey my paper said the exact

1024
00:43:16,859 --> 00:43:14,859
opposite of that and yet I was put in

1025
00:43:21,620 --> 00:43:16,869
this category so if you want to go look

1026
00:43:25,259 --> 00:43:21,630
at you know the work of people like Oh

1027
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:25,269
what's-her-name at Georgia Tech I can't

1028
00:43:28,589 --> 00:43:26,950
I can't think of her name right now I'm

1029
00:43:30,269 --> 00:43:28,599
happy to cite that to you but many

1030
00:43:31,229 --> 00:43:30,279
people have pulled that apart it's just

1031
00:43:36,479 --> 00:43:31,239
a ridiculous

1032
00:43:38,130 --> 00:43:36,489
exactly honestly I'm gonna trust mass at

1033
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:38,140
the nasa website and the scientific

1034
00:43:40,769 --> 00:43:39,910
consensus honest with you really not

1035
00:43:44,009 --> 00:43:40,779
negotiable

1036
00:43:46,019 --> 00:43:44,019
and then somebody being an idiot in this

1037
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:46,029
conversation and frankly I feel like him

1038
00:43:52,049 --> 00:43:47,920
I'm in a Content section of a Facebook

1039
00:43:53,969 --> 00:43:52,059
discussion I just I can pull up that

1040
00:43:56,279 --> 00:43:53,979
study if you want if you want to look at

1041
00:43:58,019 --> 00:43:56,289
it I can send it to you Amy we're out of

1042
00:44:07,430 --> 00:43:58,029
time but please go ahead and send it to

1043
00:44:19,259 --> 00:44:14,190
great okay humans the name-calling Jason

1044
00:44:22,019 --> 00:44:19,269
the nature man a guy guy guy guy I don't

1045
00:44:24,420 --> 00:44:22,029
look the liberty of human consciousness

1046
00:44:28,829 --> 00:44:24,430
is at stake right now

1047
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:28,839
going back to the dark ages for opinions

1048
00:44:34,829 --> 00:44:33,250
like this that's my point anybody who is

1049
00:44:37,230 --> 00:44:34,839
listening to this conversation I highly

1050
00:44:39,779 --> 00:44:37,240
recommend there's a audio series called

1051
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:39,789
your deceptive mind by dr. Steven

1052
00:44:44,789 --> 00:44:41,970
novella which fool goes for instance

1053
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:44,799
systematically right oh my God why did

1054
00:44:48,410 --> 00:44:46,930
you say you were a Steve novella fan at

1055
00:44:50,190 --> 00:44:48,420
the beginning we could have

1056
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:50,200
short-circuited this whole voice really

1057
00:44:56,339 --> 00:44:52,510
bad I got three or four interviews with

1058
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:56,349
Steve novella I mean he's great he's

1059
00:45:00,120 --> 00:44:57,660
great

1060
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:00,130
so this interview obviously it's good a

1061
00:45:04,319 --> 00:45:02,410
train wreck and I've held off from

1062
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,329
jumping in and making any comments but I

1063
00:45:09,029 --> 00:45:06,640
did have to jump in here because inside

1064
00:45:10,589 --> 00:45:09,039
baseball can only go so far and we're

1065
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:10,599
talking about Steve in felon and I

1066
00:45:16,410 --> 00:45:13,089
realize a lot of people might not know

1067
00:45:20,430 --> 00:45:16,420
who dr. Steven novella is and who he is

1068
00:45:24,269 --> 00:45:20,440
as a Yale University neurologist and one

1069
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:24,279
of the best-known public sceptics I mean

1070
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:28,270
hard core skeptic he does this show the

1071
00:45:32,099 --> 00:45:29,760
skeptics guide to the universe and

1072
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:32,109
everything to this guy is you know what

1073
00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:33,730
they call whoo you know those hardcore

1074
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:37,089
skeptics his whoo spirits total whoo I

1075
00:45:44,819 --> 00:45:41,770
mean he just meet it isn't at all within

1076
00:45:46,829 --> 00:45:44,829
his belief system occult magic heck this

1077
00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:46,839
guy doesn't believe in free will he

1078
00:45:50,430 --> 00:45:48,760
doesn't believe in consciousness but you

1079
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,440
know I say the biological robot

1080
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:52,720
meaningless universe his worldview

1081
00:45:56,210 --> 00:45:54,940
demands that everything about your

1082
00:45:59,279 --> 00:45:56,220
minute-by-minute

1083
00:46:01,260 --> 00:45:59,289
experience of consciousness is purely

1084
00:46:03,299 --> 00:46:01,270
the product of your brain therefore

1085
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,309
there is no such thing as meaning there

1086
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:05,440
is no such thing as love connection all

1087
00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:08,400
that stuff and he doesn't even believe

1088
00:46:13,740 --> 00:46:11,950
in parapsychology I mean the the debates

1089
00:46:17,130 --> 00:46:13,750
that I've had with him have been about

1090
00:46:20,150 --> 00:46:17,140
like Dean Raiden's you know carefully

1091
00:46:22,769 --> 00:46:20,160
controlled multiple-- replicated

1092
00:46:24,930 --> 00:46:22,779
presentiment work completely denies it

1093
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:24,940
completely misrepresents it and then you

1094
00:46:30,329 --> 00:46:27,609
know says that that day trading fiddles

1095
00:46:35,250 --> 00:46:30,339
with the data the worst of the worst in

1096
00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:35,260
terms of hardcore skeptics and this is I

1097
00:46:41,209 --> 00:46:37,839
mean it just it makes no

1098
00:46:44,789 --> 00:46:41,219
sense to me Jason it's the self

1099
00:46:46,579 --> 00:46:44,799
self-loathing thing you know like let's

1100
00:46:50,099 --> 00:46:46,589
cozy up with these people that

1101
00:46:53,789 --> 00:46:50,109
completely hate and stand against

1102
00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:53,799
everything we're about man I I don't I

1103
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:57,609
don't get that he's go back and listen

1104
00:47:00,690 --> 00:46:58,960
to my interviews with him I think he

1105
00:47:03,809 --> 00:47:00,700
doesn't hold up very well and I don't

1106
00:47:07,069 --> 00:47:03,819
think you've held up just been a

1107
00:47:12,709 --> 00:47:07,079
laughing monkey we'll let the listeners

1108
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:12,719
decide the light of the light of science

1109
00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:13,920
intelligence

1110
00:47:18,749 --> 00:47:17,140
let there be light Fiat Lux as both the

1111
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:18,759
scientists and the alchemists have said

1112
00:47:26,099 --> 00:47:21,130
humanity must be liberated from

1113
00:47:27,509 --> 00:47:26,109
superstition by knowledge what is

1114
00:47:29,339 --> 00:47:27,519
Novella think of your mo here we're

1115
00:47:31,019 --> 00:47:29,349
totally discounted but I'd love to talk

1116
00:47:33,539 --> 00:47:31,029
about it with them but like I said I'm

1117
00:47:35,099 --> 00:47:33,549
willing to shift hats if I'm having this

1118
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:35,109
conversation I can wear the skeptic

1119
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:37,569
add-on skeptical eye out skeptic the

1120
00:47:41,130 --> 00:47:39,249
skeptic or podcast well you don't

1121
00:47:42,539 --> 00:47:41,140
understand what skeptic covers it but I

1122
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:42,549
encourage you to get Novella

1123
00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:44,170
on your show that's one I would listen

1124
00:47:51,839 --> 00:47:50,140
to that's what I would listen with them

1125
00:47:53,789 --> 00:47:51,849
I've faced off with them several times

1126
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:53,799
you haven't so I'm sure that wasn't

1127
00:47:58,890 --> 00:47:55,359
great I'm sure that weren't great I'm

1128
00:48:00,509 --> 00:47:58,900
sure he loved you hey I think we had a

1129
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:00,519
mutual respect that's why we did

1130
00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:03,729
multiple shows but that's okay you know

1131
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:07,390
what a lot was revealed I always learned

1132
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,960
something thanks for coming on all right

1133
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:12,880
thank you for having me so thanks for

1134
00:48:17,249 --> 00:48:14,710
watching this video if it wasn't really

1135
00:48:19,019 --> 00:48:17,259
a video but just an audio stored as a

1136
00:48:21,089 --> 00:48:19,029
video I apologize but there's more

1137
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:21,099
videos out there as well but please

1138
00:48:24,690 --> 00:48:23,049
check out the skeptical website you can

1139
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:24,700
see it here we cover a lot of different

1140
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:26,160
stuff you might be interested in

1141
00:48:31,979 --> 00:48:29,170
relating to controversial science and

1142
00:48:34,979 --> 00:48:31,989
spirituality a lot of shows up there

1143
00:48:38,009 --> 00:48:34,989
over 350 of them or so all free all

1144
00:48:39,410 --> 00:48:38,019
available for downloads so do check it